Misadventures with an AGP boyfriend
Topics for thought and discussion including AGP, objectification, and narcissism
About 5 years ago, I spent about 6 months in the alternative community in Toronto. By alternative, I mean the “queer” and Kink scene. For those of you that don’t know, “queer” no longer refers to a LGB people. That slur has been stolen ( or “reclaimed” ) by youth culture, including straight people. It’s pretentious, obnoxious, and homophobic in many ways.
To be honest, I am not especially kinky and I had NO interest in activities like sadomasochism. In a place like Toronto, there are scores of groups and events, some of them are x-rated, some of them are not. There were a lot of non-kinky people there, they call us “vanilla.” Some are pretenders, and others there as people interested in meeting people or engaging in hobbies. I joined mostly because I like costumery, including vintage corsets and boots which I would find at thrift stores and restore to historical standards. I also hoped (and did) meet different people. As an eccentric and odd person, I have always fit better in non-conventional people.
That said, I saw a lot of things there that I wasn’t prepared for and this piece of writing in no way endorses that community. I am a liberal person and to some extent support adults doing what they want behind closed doors. However, there are two problems with that. The first is that vulnerable people are being recruited to consent to things they may not really consent to, and secondly, kink is becoming public, not private. More and more people are becoming concerned about the violations of boundaries of others in public, especially as popular culture is increasingly promoting sexualization and experimentation in daily life.
I left the community, and with a lesbian I met there, created Liberals for Sanity (now banned on Patreon for hate speech!) to fight gender identity ideology.
At that time, AGP was the least of our concerns. We were primarily motivated to fight the genderqueer takeover of LGB orgs and language like “cis-gendered,” which reminded us immediately of what Orwell warned of in 1984.
I detail thoughts and experiences about that elsewhere. This writing is designed to explore my experiences with AGP men and my relationship with such a man, specifically.
Months ago I saw a tweet from someone asking whether MRAs (men’s rights activists) or Rad feminists “hate” AGPs more. I can’t speak for those groups, but I can say that I am not motivated by hate.
In fact, the fact that my objections are were not shaped by any preconceived school of thought should be compelling to many. I am motivated by non-ideological concerns, and I’ve shown the work that reached my conclusions. Feminists are not wrong that there is a problem here, and it’s about more than just “being offended” by womanface. The concerns about this are real and complex, and society is only beginning to realize that feminists had some valid points on this.
Below is my experience of this relationship, my reflection on narcissistic wounds at play, the similarities and AGPs/HSTS, and the relationship to narcissistic and objectification disorders in all of these identity-claims
Part I
My Story
I met my ex boyfriend at a party. Let’s call him Vladamir or Vita. He was standing by the door in a SWAT outfit while I stuffed my face at a nearby table with amazing party snacks. I thought the SWAT outfit was goofy, but we had an interesting conversation. He had moved from the cold-war Ukraine before reaching adulthood, and my previous two boyfriends also were from the same place and time in history. I am both a history nerd and an existentialist, so something I really value in human relationships is talking about my partners’ experiences. Experiences of historical interest especially. Because my previous boyfriends shared many of his experiences, we had a lot to talk about.
When we started dating, I looked carefully at his profile. In the alternative community, that’s often about what you are “into.” He like myself, was a strict monogamist. He had some interests in domination that I told him were 100% out of the question for me. I’m an abuse survivor and I don’t like authority-especially male authority, and thus I am a control freak. So we talked about that quite a bit. He let me call the shots in the relationship-mostly. He also had a sensitive and funny side. All in all, I think we dated for 4 months.
One day, at his house, I found a number of things including a wig. I wasn’t especially alarmed at first. After all, I myself am into costumery and I grew up watching Rocky Horror and David Bowie-who cares what anyone wears?
Well, the devil is in the details, I found out. There is a difference between men who break stereotypes or accept some feminine aesthetics and ones who are sexually aroused by seeing themselves as a female-mimicking sex object.
Reflections:
The long story short, I left him. Not because of the clothes, but because of what caused him to need the clothes. These were things I found:
-Vita was not just playing with aesthetics. There were a number of things he wasn’t telling me. He was hiding from me (and actually his friends in the community, who he pretended to be a dominant male with,) crossdressing, interests in forced feminization (being made to be a submissive female, especially sexually,) and lesbian fetish.
-The SWAT outfit was related to wanting to be powerful, wanting to be a man in control. Because he wasn’t. He had been a victim of abuse as a child. While he was a BIG man physically, and he played kind of a macho role with his friends in the community, he had an internal struggle between wanting to be the abuser and wanting to reenact the abuse.
-He felt ugly as a man. He is not unattractive, but he doesn’t see masculine handsomeness reflected in his appearance. When he saw himself as a woman, that changed his self esteem. He went from feeling like an ugly, failed male, to a sexually compelling object. An object that other people wanted. An object that he would want. That filled a hole in his soul.
This is autogynephila.
-Yes, porn played a part in this. The pornified images of the desired, coveted object, the women in porn-is compelling for someone who someone who both wants that woman and wants to be that woman.
As he began to see himself as the wanted woman in the video, he developed feelings in his body. He said he could feel phantom breasts. I assume that this has to do with how the brain maps images of self to the body. I don’t doubt that the felt this, and I don’t doubt that the hyper-arousal caused by the combination of sexual excitement for the porn and emotional excitement for seeing himself as the valued object had an impact on his brain. This may (or may not) be what creates a sense of incongruity or dysmorphia in some people.
-It was a powerful and intoxicating escape to turn into his alter ego “Vita,” someone sexy and desired. It let him escape the fragile, hurt, ugly and unwanted man he felt like. The escape allowed him to bury problems he needed to be dealing with.
-Even though he had hidden fantasies of being forced to do sex acts with men, his conscious desire was that we be lesbians together. He retained a male need to see himself with a female partner, and his fantasy of lesbians is not as same-sex attracted women but as hyper desirable sexy objects. I told him to piss-off, obviously. I grew up with a lesbian and they aren’t anything like what these men want them to be.
-AGP, the arousal and the payoff are addictive. Many of these men feel like nothing inside. When they feel pretty and sexy, that changes. I would bet that there are neurotransmitters of addiction involved. This is why men start giving up EVERYTHING to engage in these behaviours. Their families, their jobs, and standards of acceptable behaviour can all be secondary to getting that fix.
Narcissistic Injury
These are all narcissistic wounds. I don’t say this is true of all AGP men, but I suspect many of these dynamics may be present, often. I do not say this to induce sympathy for them-my point is that there is a often a psychological disturbance at play and people need to be aware of that.
I had another friend in the community who was a cross dresser. His story differs from Vita’s in a few ways, but also has some similarities. He was the only son in a family of several girls and for some reason, his father was extremely distant from him but not with the girls. He craved recognition and attention, but his father ignored him. In later life a girlfriend used him to demonstrate make-up and he received a ton of attention from her friends. Like Vita, he became hooked on the high it provided. To be pretty, to be desired.
These are a few snapshots from a pop psychology magazine on narcissistic wounds. I would argue that neither of these men were full narcissists or had grandiosity problems. But they both had the wound and were attempting to fill the hole it left them with. That produced problematic behaviors for both themselves and the people around them. Thus while it is not uncommon, I would not argue it is “normal.” There is evidence that it is often very pathological.
Many people have some kind of narcissistic injury including myself.
It’s what you do with it that matters. Some people are driven to achieve. Some people get therapy. These are productive ways to deal with ones’ problems. AGP men seldom do that, instead pursuing the superficial band-aid and the euphoria created by acting out. They are pulled out of their sense of worthlessness by being an object of sexual desire. They become what they covet. Some of them think that everyone else will covet it as well, but for others it is enough for them to feel sexy to and for themselves. Either way, they end up consumed by the behaviour and the illusion, and they don’t care who it impacts. People have a right to say no to this.
There are AGP men who say that they have it under control and they care about women. If they did, they would be able to leave it at home behind closed doors. Most don’t and many can’t.
This demonstrates a lack of control and a lack of boundaries which often escalates. Many AGPs escalate to public behaviours, deception with partners, porn addiction, and other problematic behaviours. Men who need to cross dress in public, especially in ways that make others uncomfortable are engaged in domination of others, not just AGP.
When we pretend that AGP is it’s just about clothing, we are encouraging them to violate other people’s boundaries for attention. That isn’t helpful. How can you tell if it’s more than just clothing? Is it sexualized? is it mimicry of women rather than just femininity. Is it infantile (little girls being sexualized)? Is it ABDL (diaper lovers)? Is it kinky?
It is okay to be critical of all of these things. In fact the more we talk about limits and boundaries, the better.
Part 2
Discussions to be had
AGP and objectification as “normal” (no)
But David Bowie did it?
AGP/Gay trans identity: Distinct or the same?
These are some issues that come up in the GC community for discussion, and my thoughts on them.
AGP as a part of normal aspect of human continuum…
I’ve seen some people try to say that AGP is not that strange or creepy for a few reasons. They argue that women have the same AGP-like behaviours or that men like David Bowie or other glam bands with feminine aspects to their aesthetics had the same behaviors, therefore they are normal.
I do agree that there is a continuum and that it is normal for human beings to be wired for moderate amounts of narcissism, attention seeking, and sexual gaze. However, societies all have checks and balances on what is deemed appropriate to keep people’s narcissism from running amok. Most of us are able to discuss the fact that A glam band is a okay, and a man in a pink scarf differ from men in womanface or plastic breasts teaching kids or using our bathroom. One is stage act, one is gender non-conformity, the other is non-consent. We won’t agree on all outfits and behaviours but we will agree on most-and we can and should vigorously debate the questionable.
It isn’t illiberal to debate boundaries and to be critical of people.
Self-Objectification in women
it is true that I saw women with complex objectification fetishes. Some of them get a similar buzz as AGP men do when they look fabulous, and/or they see people pay attention to them. Like men who feel empty inside, these women may have a narcissistic wound. Both men and women who violate the boundaries of others with their need for sexual objectification face criticism. as they should. They are less likely, however, to engage in escalating sexual or criminal behaviour as are the men who engage in cross sex objectification
David Bowie, Liberace, and others
Not that I need to “defend” David Bowie, but I would argue that he wasn’t an autogynephile. I would also argue that he was a narcissist and that he got off on objectifying himself in some ways, but it was usually not female mimicry or particularly sexualized.
The only actual “womanface he did was in a 1977 video about the drag underground. While it is fair to be offended by the video, he did not for the most part wear onstage or in daily life.
The most important piece of evidence that I’d point to that this wasn’t AGP was that he never became consumed with femininity. In many AGP, one becomes consumed by the identity, the illusion, and getting closer to making it feel real (or be affirmed as real to others.) In contrast, Bowie shed all feminine aesthetics by 1980 and never really returned to them.
This also reminds me of Liberace. He was a known male narcissist, even accused by his boyfriend of abuse. Apparently he was forced to have surgery to get “dimples” that were like Liberace’s so that he could have his own mini-me. He was image obsessed and a narcissist. These would have been red flags in a relationship, but not necessarily signs of the kind that accompany cross dressing objectification. And what HE was a great example of is a gay man creating his OWN sense of style rather than just mimicking women. That’ a valuable lesson
Performance artists play with stylized images. They produce both wonderful and offensive art. That doesn’t mean that it’s average, normal, or should be accommodated in workplaces or bathrooms.
(below, Eddie Izzard in women’s public restroom)
Gay men and AGP.
Most of my article thus far has been about AGP men, and how cross-sex sexual objectification is more dangerous than simply objectifying yourself as part of our ow sex class. Many people give gay men who crossdress/trans-identify a pass, and consider them different from AGP.
I am not completely convinced that there is no overlap. Gay men who rebrand as women are sometimes incredibly narcissistic, sexist, and hate real women. Like AGPs, they often revel in sexual objectification of self. Shon Faye (pictured below), a gay man who receives applause for claiming to be a woman, is highly derogatory of women and makes constant sexual references.
You’ll notice that his highly sexual comments are aimed at kids.
I have some gay men in my life who identify as trans but I no longer support or affirm their trans identity.
Conclusion
How are we to deal with all of this, if we are not to criminalize adults, something that I as a liberal would prefer.
In Iran there are purity police that measure men’s hair cuts to make sure they are approved. Most of us don’t want to return to those days of gender policing and it could not be criminalized if we wanted it to be.
What we can do, however, is debate where the limit is. That conversation is important.
Social norms are regulated by social pressure. I support people debating all of these men, and where the limits are to normal, non-intrusive gender non-conformity. I support people debating what we should do about them, how we should (and shouldn’t) normalize male diversity, and where GNC ends and AGP starts.